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Keith_c
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Re: Nice !!

Post by Keith_c » Sun May 29, 2011 2:10 pm

karlvin08 wrote:I don't think anyone here is advocating driving drunk, what is being argued by those of us that say it is okay to drink is why criminalize for lack of a better term someone who wants to be responsible, yet have a cold beer with lunch on the trail. Those who will get wasted and try to wheel will do so regardless of if it is allowed or not. They prove that by doing so on public roads. There are plenty of us who have a single beer with dinner and drive home without being impaired. The point I am trying to make is that it is silly to ban everyone from doing something because of a few bad apples. Bans are absolute, and it is generally the people who respect laws and rules who follow them, those who have little respect for the rules find ways to sneak around them and break them anyway. I just get irritated when I have to modify my behavior because someone else can't do the right thing. It doesn't just apply to this set of circumstances, but in many aspects of life. Admittedly though as I do not live up there anymore I don't have a dog in this fight, but it is still annoying to see people who want others to change what they do because of irresponsible individuals who have made poor decisions.
Point taken.

But in a case like RC, it is much easier to just ban it rather than have to try to monitor and police whether someone had just one beer with lunch or is close to killing a 12 pack.

Some people have a problem with alcohol, and as you pointed out, you cannot rely on them to make rational choices when it comes to consuming it.

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jimmy21669
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Re: Nice !!

Post by jimmy21669 » Sun May 29, 2011 4:28 pm

Karl, completely get your point, 100% but we silly Americans are like kids, we need rules. When a rule becomes too difficult to police, it becomes a ban.

I am sure that these parks institute these bans based on experience. There is a reason that offroaders are seen as a bunch of drunken hillbillies and a reason why those passionate about the sport are trying to change that stigma.

It is, fortunately, illegal to drink and drive. Yes, people still do it, but do so knowing the consequences.

Can you name 1 LEGAL wheeling place in Maryland? Maybe there is a reason for that? I think we need to stay squeaky clean in what we do to open more opportunities. We have to reverse engineer the problem. A lot was taken away from us because of irresponsibility and only responsibility will bring it back.

At a time when the DNR is actually seriously considering opening OHV areas, I think this especially applies. And so, to the original point, people will do what they do. I can't stop them, and neither can rules. But posting it in an open forum is reckless to say the least.
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karlvin08
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Re: Nice !!

Post by karlvin08 » Sun May 29, 2011 4:56 pm

A big part of the issue with there being no legal wheeling in MD is that it is not a cost effective use of the land. Places like RC and Paragon while it was still open are in areas of relatively low land value. As soon as someone thought they had a way to make more money than an off road park Paragon disappeared. If there was a similar situation at RC, it saddened me to say it, but I would guess they would close up as well. The almighty dollar speaks pretty loudly. I can almost guarantee you that if someone thought they could make enough with a park in MD to pay the insurance, mortgage, and ridiculous taxes on the land as well as put a little in their pocket they would open one up. There is plenty of land west of Frederick that would make perfect off road parks. Sadly though as long as businesses move in and the cookie cutter housing developments keep popping up you won't get much in the way of legal wheeling there, drunken redneck image or not.

Down here the drunken rednecks personna is alive and well in the wheeling community, and yet it manages to thrive. You can't throw a dead cat without hitting a lifted up rig. Granted in this part of the state they are more into mud, but that is the terrain they have. We have several state parks to go to, as well as some smaller private pay to play areas. There are off road shops all over the place. It really is a nice area to live in as an off roader.

I feel bad to say this, as I think everyone should have access to outdoor recreation areas of their choosing, but has populated as MD is, and with real estate being as valuable as it is there, I have a feeling there will never be any legal wheeling there that is more than fire roads and groomed trails for people with side by side atv's. It won't matter what is posted on forums, or how many online petitions are filed, or even letters sent to legislators. It all comes down to the money trail. In a fairly economically depressed area like where RC is the money comes from wheelers, but in MD and NOVA for the most part, the money spent by the four wheel community would barely be a drop in the bucket compared to what big businesses are laying out.
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Re: Nice !!

Post by Keith_c » Sun May 29, 2011 5:25 pm

karlvin08 wrote:As soon as someone thought they had a way to make more money than an off road park Paragon disappeared.
And since the market collapsed, it still sits there vacant.

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Re: Nice !!

Post by karlvin08 » Sun May 29, 2011 5:30 pm

Keith_c wrote:
karlvin08 wrote:As soon as someone thought they had a way to make more money than an off road park Paragon disappeared.
And since the market collapsed, it still sits there vacant.

Well yeah, that along with some corruption and bribes that came into the public eye. The whole situation was a mess in the end, but it all started because someone thought they could make money with a cargo airport to bring stuff into NYC with less air traffic and a short drive and make a pretty penny doing it. But yeah the whole deal was shady.
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NavinRJohnson wrote:Sorry, but you guys are clueless. Any hair left on the badger interferes with the process, because the bits of the watermelon get caught in the hair. It's a sticky phucking mess. You don't really want to have to deal with that while looking for the quarter.

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Re: Nice !!

Post by 98ZJHagerstown » Sun May 29, 2011 9:14 pm

Keith_c wrote:
98ZJHagerstown wrote:
jimmy21669 wrote: If EVERYONE can not wheel and drink responsibly then NOONE does.

Couldn't disagree more.

That's the same BS logic that "those people" use to try to take away gun rights...
:smt068
You are trying to compare what should be a common sense decision to a constitutional right.

You have to be either stupid or drunk to try to argue that alcohol does not affect a human's ability to do certain things.

Driving is one of them. Whether it be on a road or a trail.

And how would you police it? Do you have trail cops at each trail intersection checking to make sure no one has gone "over their limit" ?

I for one am glad that Bruce takes such a hardcore approach to this at RC.

I really do not want to be on the trail knowing there may be a drunken yahoo flying around the next corner toward me.


I think you missed the point of my post...

I'm just merely stating that you can't use the logic of "Everyone can't do X,Y,Z responsibly, so nobody should be able to do X,Y,Z" That's dangerous territory...
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Re: Nice !!

Post by wesleypipesyo » Sun May 29, 2011 9:23 pm

Can we put less words in our posts and stop quoting the posts with lots of words? I am not the smartest of people and reading hurts my head.


But I do agree with most of what I think I skimmed through. Maryland sucks.
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